Natalya Cherkashina: from plastic bags to space ideas
Maria Sklodovskaya-Curie, Sophia Kovalevskaya… — you must admit, women who have left their mark on science can be counted on the fingers. In general, science has always been considered the privilege of men. Both of these conclusions are ready to be challenged at BSTU named after V.G. Shukhov, because here today not only male scientists are engaged in science and move it forward. Meet our interlocutor - Candidate of Technical Sciences, Associate Professor of the Department of Theoretical and Applied Chemistry, BSTU named after V.G. Shukhov, a researcher who made a significant contribution to the development of space materials science and the creation of a new generation of rocket and space technology Natalya Cherkashina.
- Natasha, the image of a scientist is now interpreted in such a diverse way.
Well, for example, if you watch any modern film, then one of its main characters will definitely be a scientist. He either invented some kind of virus that destroyed the entire population of the Earth, or vice versa - a medicine that saved civilization, or some kind of breakthrough technology.
Do you think this is an exaggeration, or is the role of a scientist in the life of mankind just such a key one? - Of course, there is a slight exaggeration in the films, but at the same time, they also contain a large amount of truth. Scientists are capable of many things. If a person moves along a "bad channel", then the development of viruses and some kind of telephone fraud are possible. But I still believe that most of what scientists will invent will be for the benefit of mankind, and we can all enjoy these achievements for many years to come.
— Do you consider yourself a creator? - Yes exactly.
- And in what area? — I work in the field of polymer composites for various purposes. Previously, we were engaged in the production of composites that can be used in outer space to protect against radiation, so that astronauts can stay in orbit for a longer time. — Radioprotective composite materials are what you are developing for space.
Do they protect against radiation or from some kind of radiation? - The fact is that in space there is not one, but several types of radiation. In addition, other factors play a role.
For example, temperature drops - from minus 250 to plus 200 degrees Celsius. Or an oncoming stream of micrometeorite particles. All together negatively affects any instruments, any parameters of the spacecraft. Therefore, our task is to develop materials that can withstand not only cosmic radiation, but also other negative factors of outer space. We have special installations on which we test our materials: one installation for radiation, electron, proton radiation. The other one deals with the impact of micrometeorite particles.
The third test is for thermal cycling. And if the material has passed all these tests, then we can already recommend it for targeted work at Roscosmos. And now we have very interesting developments in the field of polymer composites for ground use. These materials are biorenewable, biodegradable. We all use plastic almost daily - plastic bags that accompany our purchases at Magnity, Pyaterochka, and we all know how they pollute the environment. My task and the task of our entire team is to develop materials that are degradable and do not pollute the environment. They will also be based on polymers, but are mainly made from waste that decomposes quickly. This, in our opinion, will help save the ecology of our planet in the future.
- Natasha, do I understand correctly that now we are talking about the youth laboratory, which you are in charge of? - Right. Last year, I won a grant within the framework of the Science and Education project for the creation of a youth laboratory, and recruited a team. Most of the guys are under 39 years old, most of them are students, graduate students of the Institute of Chemical Technology, who are part of my laboratory and are engaged in research in the field of polymeric materials that can replace traditional composites with environmentally friendly ones. There are two such laboratories at our university - one under my supervision, and the other under the supervision of Sergey Vasilyevich Klyuev. - And how many people conduct scientific research in laboratories? — There are 19 people in my laboratory, including me, including 7 undergraduates, and 5 graduate students. The rest are scientists with a Ph.D.
- And they are all passionate about this science? Well, some more, some less. When you hire students, you understand that their main task is still studying, not to mention the fact that they have some kind of personal life, which means that they can only engage in scientific activities in their free time. Therefore, students are a little less involved in the process.
There are already more graduate students, because their main study is postgraduate studies, so they do some kind of research as part of their scientific activities.
Well, young candidates of science are no longer burdened with anything, which means that they can fully devote themselves to scientific activity.
Let's talk about your laboratory. What is it called? - The laboratory is called "Development of scientific and technical foundations for the creation of polymer systems from renewable raw materials." — For how long is the grant given and will you have time to do everything that you have planned? — The grant is given for 3 years. We received it in 2021, now the second grant year is underway and there will be one more. But we are well aware that these three years will not be limited. In Russia, huge grant support is possible, which means that our task is to make some groundwork so that in the future we can apply for other grants and receive funding from other donors. Now we are in the initial stage, which helps us make a small leap to claim victory with larger projects. Perhaps one of the guys will be able to get their own grant in the future. For example, according to the program "Umnik". Many undergraduates and graduate students get this opportunity to do their own little research, yes, also under the guidance of the laboratory, but with their own topics. - Natasha, I know that you were engaged in research for the space industry? We have not completed these studies. Yes, I am in charge of the laboratory, the main focus of my work is on ground-based polymer composites. But we also have other projects that are dedicated to polymer composites for space. And these materials were approved by the Roskomos State Corporation. Now we hope that in the near future these materials will fly into space, and after they are approved based on the results of space research, we can talk about their introduction into production to protect astronauts or protect electronic equipment. But the fact is that such work lasts a long time, they cannot be completed in 1 or 2 years. In addition to the fact that these studies are time-consuming, Roscosmos still has a very serious acceptance, so with our research we are simply moving to a new stage. Now our task is to introduce materials, conduct research work on the ISS and then introduce them into the production of spacecraft. - That is, in our BSTU. V.G. Shukhov, are such materials being developed now that are approved by Roscosmos and fly into outer space, to the ISS? — Yes, that's right. Belgorod is known in Moscow, in Roskosmos, and this is really our achievement. Few universities can boast of such fame, such an opportunity to participate in targeted work on the ISS. At the cosmonaut training center, our employees, our colleagues worked very closely with us, they really confirm that BSTU. V.G. Shukhov is known everywhere - in the Roskosmos system, in the cosmonaut training center, and in RSC Energia. - And what scientists are involved in these developments, what are the names of those you know? - Of course, they know Pavlenko Vyacheslav Ivanovich - this is a doctor of technical sciences, professor, head of our scientific school, honored inventor of the Russian Federation. He has more than 50 patents, more than 500 publications, he is a world-class person, because he has high rates not only by Russian, but also by foreign standards. His works are cited all over the world by specialists in the field of space materials science and radiation. We have a scientific school at the university, which he directs. And I am one of her students.
Recently, Vyacheslav Ivanovich joined the Council of the Russian Academy of Sciences on materials. This also speaks of his great achievement as a scientist.
- And who else can be distinguished besides Vyacheslav Ivanovich? - This is Yastrebinsky Roman Nikolaevich, he heads the Institute of Chemical Technology, these are candidates of technical sciences, associate professors of the Department of Theoretical and Applied Chemistry Oleg Dmitrievich Edamenko and Pavel Vladimirovich Matyukhin and many other students of Vyacheslav Ivanovich. Let's go back to the lab.
What equipment is needed to get started, what have you already purchased, what are your plans and how can it help in the future, besides solving your problems? - Most of the equipment we work on is already at the university in the Center for High Technologies. Also, as part of the organization of the laboratory, we purchased a liquid chromatograph. It has only now been put into production, and research on it has not yet been conducted. It will also be necessary to purchase presses, drying cabinets. This is not high-tech equipment, but it will be available to students, they will be able to use it and start their first scientific developments on it.
What is a liquid chromatograph? — This is an analytical instrument for chromatographic separation of a mixture of substances, analysis of its components and properties of complex mixtures. Let me explain in a simpler way: if some kind of chemical reaction takes place, but we cannot visually determine whether it has passed or not and what products are the result, then a liquid chromatograph is a device that will allow us to look inside the reaction and give answers to the questions - was it reaction and what substances are obtained.
— Have you ever faced any kind of discrimination due to the fact that you, a woman, have chosen such a difficult field of activity? - Not that there was discrimination, but there was a misunderstanding ... Many people believe that the main purpose of a woman is to raise children. Yes, I am a mother of two children and I felt a little discrimination when I was just being escorted on maternity leave. Many people thought that I would not go to work, but I am passionate enough about science to stay at home. Therefore, I decided to try to combine both motherhood and scientific activity, and I hope I succeed in this. — Natasha, what do you consider your main achievement in science today? - This is that our materials have been tested at Roscosmos and are being prepared for shipment to the ISS. In order for this to happen, we have done a lot of hard work. For the previous 2 years, we have been doing documentation for our materials, doing additional research to prove that our materials are already ready to fly to the International Space Station. - Is it only 2 years to collect supporting documentation? How long did the project itself take? I have been a PhD student since 2010. And from that time on, as part of a group of scientists, I began to work on this topic. That is, only the development of materials took about 10 years. After all, what is science? Here, you can’t mix 2 substances to get a third one, which can be guaranteed to be sent into space. It was necessary to conduct a lot of experiments, to synthesize different substances, to conduct a lot of research on special equipment. And it turns out that 10 years should have passed to get the final result. - And does your passion for science, extensive scientific activity interfere with ordinary, domestic life, caring for children, for your husband, or do they support you so much that they take everything upon themselves? - My husband, of course, supports me, and we are trying to share responsibilities with him. But my time is limited and sometimes I have to make a difficult choice: cook food or write an article? Or - to make a report that needs to be handed in tomorrow morning to the Ministry, or to play with the children? Yes, it is really difficult to combine it, but it is possible. For example, order food or buy ready-made in the store, instead of standing at the stove for 2 hours. This saves my time, which I will spend on reports, for example. — Are there girls in your youth laboratory? - Yes, of course, and there are more girls even than boys. And now it’s even easier for them than for the guys who already have a family - it’s all household chores plus the need to earn a living. That is, their motivation is different - they go to work in a laboratory, because they have a family and need to earn money, feed their children, although the students themselves also need to study. - Natasha, can you now earn a decent living by science? - Can. As in any field: if you are a senior seller, you get good, and if you are a junior, you get less. If you are a good specialist, you will live in abundance, and if you don’t want to do anything, then you will have nothing. The same is true in science. Let me add that there are a lot of foundations in Russia that support scientific research. These are grants and scholarships from the President, the Russian Science Foundation, the Russian Foundation for Basic Research and many others. There are a lot of grants and can be submitted immediately in all directions and grant-giving organizations. Even within the framework of one grant, several applications can be submitted at once. As they say, there would be time and desire. For example, at our department, several projects are going on at once - both a youth laboratory and 2 grants from the Russian Science Foundation - one under my leadership, the other under the leadership of Vyacheslav Ivanovich. Of course, we spend more on equipment in grants, but we also pay decent wages to our researchers. Therefore, they are willing to come to our department. Yes, we demand a lot, but we adequately reward the work. Moreover, as soon as we understand that students have received a basic level, we ourselves encourage them to make grant applications. For example, this year my undergraduate student won a scholarship named after Y. Gagarin. This is 10 thousand rubles a month, which he will receive for a whole year. There is financial support. But you need, firstly, to know about it, and, secondly, to be supported. You can apply for 10 grants and win one. But this grant will feed you for 3 years. — Now there is a lot of talk about the fact that the level of education has fallen, especially among schoolchildren.
What kind of guys come to you? Are they ready to do science or are they separate pearls, piece goods?
- The guys have a desire, although, of course, they do not know how to do everything at once. Naturally, we train them, as they say, from scratch.
For example, to scan on a computer, to work with a windmill. But the most important thing in our selection of children is the desire to learn. We will always tell you how to make documents, how to write an article, how to work with equipment. They may not have enough knowledge and experience yet, but they are ready to learn, which means they will succeed.
- Do you need talent?
You know, everyone has a different talent. I try to find talent in every student or graduate student and direct it in the right direction. For example, someone has a talent for mixing materials, because this is a very meticulous work. Someone has to work with the microscope. This is work on perseverance, accuracy, the ability to concentrate. And someone has such a temperament that is more useful on business trips, at conferences. Some people are good at writing articles. There are abilities in everyone, you just need to find the right application for them. With us, everyone will find their own niche and will do what they like, what they do best, then everyone will benefit our laboratory in their own way. - There is such a universal problem of fathers and children - a misunderstanding between people of different ages. Vyacheslav Ivanovich is an aged man, you are a young scientist, students are even younger. Is there any misunderstanding between you all? - Naturally, in any field there are situations when young people offer something, and "adults" reject it. There is such a situation in the scientific sphere, but in our country this misunderstanding is resolvable. Suppose my students are trying to convey something to me that I cannot immediately perceive. The main thing is not to take the offer with hostility. Because I remember very well that Vyacheslav Ivanovich did not immediately approve of some of my ideas either. And then he changed his mind, realizing that there is a rational grain there, and it can work. Therefore, we always adhere to this tactic: prove that your idea works, test it. And when the author of the idea comes up with concrete results, then we include his idea in the general work plan. Our industry is good because we are not theorists - we are experimenters. We can experiment and prove that it really works. Is there any achievement that you dream of? Right now, the materials you have developed will fly to the ISS, and what's next? Scientists dream too! But there are real dreams - for example, protective vests for astronauts that we managed to develop, or protective covers for electronic equipment. This dream has already become a reality. And in the long run, my dream is to do something to win the President's Award for Science and Innovation. Would you like to receive the Nobel Prize? But is there a need for theoretical developments? - No (laughs), I don’t dream about it yet. But here's what I want to draw your attention to. Now many developments are at the intersection of different sciences. And everywhere such developments are welcomed, where scientists from different fields are employed. Many understand that it is impossible for everyone to work separately in their own field - everything is interconnected. Therefore, to develop something, such teams are created, where there are specialists in all industries. It is such a team that is able to create more productive technologies that can find real implementation, and not just remain theoretical developments on paper. - The inhabitants who write comments on social networks are very skeptical about the development of Russian science. I would like to hear your opinion, as a person who is engaged in this very science.
- People who are far from science think that the typical image of a scientist is a crazy professor with gray hair, with some kind of test tubes, inventing a time machine. A real scientist now looks and acts differently. All our works are peer-reviewed, and all of them are on the Internet, in the public domain. After all, what is a publication? This is a scientific article that undergoes mandatory peer review: 2 independent experts, and if it is an international journal, then 2 reviewers from two different countries are selected.
They read your article and give their summary - to publish or not. Our Russian scientists have international publications in highly cited journals. What does it say? This suggests that experts from other countries have appreciated Russian science.
Many Russian scientists have high indexes of publications, the so-called Hirsch indices , group of scientists, scientific organization or country as a whole, based on the number of publications and the number of citations of these publications). And it is gratifying to note that the President of Russia approved the Year of Science and Technology and introduced such a trend that we need to talk about science as much as possible. Just so that there are fewer skeptical people. I hope that the past year of science has become a certain breakthrough so that in the future people will trust scientists more and even be able to help us themselves, and not throw stones at us and shout everywhere that our research is not needed.
- Were there stones, as they say, in your garden?
-There are skeptical people not only among the townsfolk, but also among scientists. For example, it happened to us that they were told: this theory cannot work, this research is not worth doing, but this article cannot be published anywhere and never. This is quite normal - everyone has their own opinion. When you apply for a grant, you are only submitting an idea - an untested idea. And sometimes it may seem that these ideas are simply cosmic. Well, one reviewer will write: "it's impossible to do." And two other reviewers will say: “this is cool, no one could have thought of this before! Definitely, we need to support it and allocate funding.” It was the same with me with the project of a grant from the Russian Science Foundation for the development of thermal control coatings based on polymer membranes. We took the thinnest polymer films with a large number of nanoholes. We drove metals into them, then assembled them, made a multilayer composite, and made metal coatings on top. This is very meticulous work. And these materials are good because there is no aggregation of particles, that is, this is the biggest difficulty. And one expert thought that this could not be done at all, that it was such painstaking work that the guys would not be able to do it. And we defended the project, received funding for it and were able to do it. Now we have six months left, we will write the final report on this project and, perhaps, we will submit an additional application for its extension. -
And all this is happening here - at BSTU named after V.G. Shukhov? — Yes, this is all done at our university.
- Natasha, thank you for the conversation, good luck with all your developments, ideas, laboratories and everything you do. - Thanks a lot.